UNITED STATES AGENCY FOR INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT

November 27, 2024

INTERVIEW

Administrator Samantha Power with Radio Programas del Perú’s Alejandro Céspedes Garcia

ALEJANDRO CÉSPEDES GARCIA: Samantha Power, it’s a privilege to have you here in Peru. It’s the first time that you are in Peru. You are here because you are the Administrator of USAID, the United States Agency for International Development. And the main point of your visit has been to go to Madre de Dios, tell us what have you seen, what have you heard, and what have you felt being there?

ADMINISTRATOR SAMANTHA POWER: Well thank you so much for having me.

And on this visit, which followed so closely to President Biden’s visit to Peru, and then flying over the Amazon, as he did, to witness some of the damage and deforestation. For me, it was an opportunity to see the effects of illegal mining, you know, given the economic challenges that so many Peruvians and people from all around the world face.

Of course, I completely understand the temptation to earn money for your family, but the effects on the land, on this precious natural resource which protects the whole world, the effects are devastating. And, you know, when we, from far away, hear about artisanal mining, we kind of think of small scale, you know, chipping away at getting the gold. And then, you’re on a helicopter and you are on a plane and you fly over the area and as far as the eye can see you just see this toxic mud, these green pools.

USAID funded several years ago the creation of a mercury testing lab so that we could test the soil and the fish and of course the water, and you know some of the rivers there have 300 percent more mercury than elsewhere. So, this is a poison, a poison for the fauna, a poison for the people, and it’s something, of course, that will take a long time to reverse. So, I came to see it, but I came to think what more can USAID, and the American people, do in support, of course, of Peruvians. It is Peruvians who are on the frontline, Indigenous communities, people from all over the country who recognize this treasure that God gave Peru. And, so there are so many people of good will, you know, really trying to address this, but it’s an issue that’s getting worse not better. And, I worry that five years from now, you know, I would see even further into the distance or you would see even further into the distance, more of this red mud, and you know not seeing at all the kind of lush rainforest that I have hoped, of course, to see and one still sees, but, you know, these actions are taking a real toll on this treasure.

MR. GARCIA: You have said that the Amazon is a wonder of the world, but it is in a very difficult situation because the reason you explained – you have talked with Indigenous leaders, and with journalists as well, and you have used very hard words saying that Peru belongs to the top ten of the worst countries for the protection of Indigenous People.

ADMINISTRATOR POWER: Well, I met with Indigenous leaders who cherished the land, the spirituality of the land, the resources that grow out of the land, whether fish or vegetables or fruits. I sat and had lunch with them. They prepared, you know, an Indigenous meal. And, even today actually, in Lima, I met with a pair of chefs who are making it their mission to try to raise awareness of just how much wonderful food is grown in the Amazon – food that can only be found there, and that should have a great clientele and audience here in Lima and globally, but doesn’t yet. And so, USAID is working both with the farmers in the Amazon, but also with these restaurateurs, to try to create more supply and then more demand here for livelihoods.

And these are the kinds of things we talked about is, you know, they now export or send their Brazil nuts to market, and can make money in that way. But, you know, what are the kinds of economic opportunities that can be created there for the people who live in the rainforest, so that their children do not turn to illegal mining, so that their children don’t leave to go to urban areas because they feel there is no future in the Amazon.

And then, to your point, what can we, USAID and the Peruvian authorities and others, do to protect those Indigenous leaders who spot people doing things on their land that are illegal, and who draw attention to that, who call the authorities, you know, tell the authorities that it’s time to enforce the law, but instead, who sometimes face threats.

And indeed, you know, more than 36 environmental defenders have been killed since 2014, just in the last decade. And that sends a chilling effect to the very leaders that the Peruvian people need to continue to raise their voices and to be able to see their rights respected and protected, and to see the law enforced.

MR. GARCIA: Which is very serious is that most of the 36 killed – Indigenous leaders – have been killed by people that we don’t even know where they are – who they are. You have said even that it seems that these criminal activities are not seen by the legal system.

ADMINISTRATOR POWER: Well, that was certainly the message that the Indigenous Communities, who have lost, you know, members of their own families. In some cases, you know, they just say, look, the law is on the piece of paper, but paper can’t stop a gunshot. And, the only way that you deter this kind of violence is by punishing the perpetrators.

And, you know, we have launched, on my visit, an activity that is designed to work with law enforcement to try to improve enforcement, while also giving Indigenous Communities more satellite information and insight into who is on their land at what time in order to raise the warning.

But, fundamentally, you know, this is something that matters so much to all Peruvians, and it’s important that it’s not just the Indigenous Communities raising their voices, and certainly the United States wants to lend whatever support we can to the young people in Peru who recognize what the Amazon represents for them and also don’t want to live in a country where murder goes unpunished, irrespective of who is targeted for that killing. So, rule of law is essential for all of the other objectives that young people have and that the leadership of this country have, like drawing foreign investment.

You know, it’s hard when I go back to the United States, or when our Ambassador brings a business delegation here, people think, “oh well the environment that’s over here, but foreign direct investment and trade, that’s here.” But, often those business leaders come and they ask, you know, what about the rule of law? You know, will I have to pay a bribe in order to work here? For an American businessman to pay a bribe in another country that’s illegal back in the United States. So, they can’t come here, if that’s what’s required. And, they want to know that if an injustice is perpetrated, that that is going to be something that is addressed, you know, in the court system, in the justice system.

So, you know, this is the privilege of working at USAID. We get to see the connections across the sectors and how even something that everyone agrees on, the importance of creating jobs for young people, having more trade and more foreign direct investment here, and more private sector interest in Peru, that is so connected to the governance issues, to freedom for independent media to do their work, for civil society to operate unimpeded. And, so these are, you know, these are messages that we send. These are insights that we have also from seeing when governance and the rule of law gets strengthened, we see in other parts of the world how much more success we can have in driving economic investment.

MR. GARCIA: You have been asked in Madre de Dios about a very delicate point, which is the case of some Indigenous People who collaborate with illegal mining. What to do, what to say to them, what to propose to them in order for them to do what they know is not good for the land?

ADMINISTRATOR POWER: Yes, in fact, I met this morning with Peru’s Prime Minister [Gustavo Adrianzén], and we had a version of that discussion as well. And, I mean, this is where, again, everything is connected to everything else in a different way, which is, it is essential that young people, whether Indigenous or from any community, have hope, have opportunity. It is hard simply to say, okay, you’re unemployed, stay unemployed. And, the Prime Minister today was making the point of just how much an ounce of gold goes for, and how much a person can earn.

And so this is where, you know, a major initiative with meaningful investment, with attention to livelihoods and other opportunities, we have to – we can’t think about – we have to think about environmental law, and we have to think about enforcement of the rules on the books – Peru has to with our support, I hope. But, you can’t think about that divorced from – what we were talking about before, which is, what other forms of livelihood can all communities enjoy? You know, what economic opportunities will a young person have? I mean, for, I can imagine, for many of the Indigenous groups, the fact that a member of their own family is working to destroy the very land that they have been living on, you know, for thousands and thousands of years, and that must be incredibly painful. And even for the child or the teenager or the young adult who makes that turn, that must be incredibly painful, actually, at the beginning.

But, options are necessary, you know, more livelihoods, more investment, more ecotourism, a way to stay, as we say, on the straight and narrow, you know, and not give in to the temptation to earn a quick dollar, when what it will ultimately bring about is the destruction of the very natural resource on which so much of the economy depends – and so much of the world’s health depends.

MR. GARCIA: Other point, who was a subject of a question in Madre de Dios is what to do with the non-contacted people who live in Madre de Dios?

ADMINISTRATOR POWER: I mean, having paid my first trip to the Amazon, I’m no expert on how to handle issues, honestly, of that level of cultural specificity and sensitivity.

I’m very pleased that Peru is one of the first USAID missions around the world. After working here now for more than 63 years, we have brought onto our team, actually an Indigenous Communities Advisor, a senior advisor, who we turn to, not because there’s any right answer to some of these very delicate questions, but because we know we have someone who can find a way to go out and to communicate and to listen and to enlist and so, again, I defer to people who are much more knowledgeable than me, a visitor, on that.

But you know, USAID our work here is predicated on the idea of inclusion. In a way, when you think about even the concept of economic development in its grandest sense, what does economic development mean if people are left outside of a country’s development? We see this in the United States, that even as the economy grows many, many people are left behind. It’s not inclusive economic growth sometimes, and that’s something Peru is struggling with. It grew, I think, last year, at 3.5 percent. It can grow more, but who’s benefiting from that? Is there inclusive economic development? Does the education system find a way to reach girls as well as boys, Indigenous Communities as well as others? And so, these are the kinds of questions we ask again in support of the agenda from the people that we hear from.

MR. GARCIA: You have been a journalist, a lot of people associate you with your work as a journalist during the Yugoslavian Wars 30 years ago. In USAID, it’s helping journalists, offering media training to 450 journalists in order to be useful, to be able to report what is happening in the environment. Tell us about this project, please.

ADMINISTRATOR POWER: Well, I think that there’s reporting on what is happening out in the world. There is training as well on reporting on environmental crimes, which unfortunately appears to be a growth industry. So, these trainings bring people who have done this kind of work together with journalists who might just be starting out, sometimes very young journalists. But, the other aspect of journalist training, which is not necessarily on how to find sources or how to make sure that your facts are correct, which is essential for such sensitive reporting. But, part of what journalists are really struggling with all over the world, including in the United States, is how to make a living, is how to break even, how to make a profit through independent news reporting.

And, so that’s slightly different than the training on how to report on environmental crimes and how to source and make sure, again, that you have legally solid, you know, ground to stand on. But, USAID, which for years did training of that nature with independent journalists over the last three or four years globally, and including here in Peru, we’ve had to do something entirely different, which is sit down with journalists and provide them technical support in looking at market share, in thinking about digitization and how they can cut their costs and increase their ad revenue, how they can understand who their core audiences are, and then find again companies to support them that are trying to sell products to that audience – basic stuff.

But, you know, we have – it’s not just the Amazon that is facing an existential crisis, it’s not just our planet that’s facing an existential crisis, it’s independent media and so, we have to think creatively in support of those who are willing to risk their lives and tell these stories, and try to build constituencies to press the authorities to enforce the rule of law, but they also have to find readers. They have to find viewers. And so, that kind of training as well has become really important to USAID.

MR. GARCIA: You remind us that USAID has been working in Peru since 1961, over 60 years, as you said. But you started working especially concerning the healthcare, in food, and the fight against poverty. Change, things change a little bit, Peru is today a different country than it was in the 60s. What are now the main priorities of your work in Peru?

ADMINISTRATOR POWER: I appreciate you asking that. I mean, I think that there’s no question the subject of our discussion is at the heart of our work here now, which is protecting the environment, conservation, helping communities adapt as well to climate change, which is not something that’s coming in the future, it’s already changing weather patterns. I talked yesterday to Indigenous Communities, you know, who used to be able to predict when to plant, you know when to harvest. And it’s just getting much harder. Forest fires now burning through, again, this precious timber, and precious rainforest.

So, we’ve invested a lot in climate resilient agriculture. We have invested a lot in, again, raising awareness in the public about the preciousness of the environmental blessings that Peru has been given. We’re now investing a lot in this question of livelihoods and economic opportunities for those who might be tempted to go into illicit mining or logging and the like. And, of course, we, USAID, are part of the broader U.S. Embassy team who are very focused on the rise of narco–trafficking, criminal gangs.

I’ve spent, in this job, a fair amount of time in Ecuador, which five years ago, never could have predicted for itself that these gangs and this criminality would come so fast and cause such damage. And, obviously, the government with USAID and our State Department colleagues’ support, is trying to grapple with that. But, it’s important to see these trends and to know how important it is to nip corruption in the bud, to mobilize coordination, you know, at the municipal level, at the regional level, at the national level, also across borders, you know, given that some of these shadowy networks are taking advantage of the way the borderlessness of the broader region.

So, that’s a really important priority to the United States, is to help the Peruvian authorities crack down on growing criminality, and one of USAID’s priorities is to support an effort to increase transparency, including in government projects.

Just in the last couple years, we have brought transparency to about 100 public works where citizens are given the information they need about procurement, about what the local authorities or the national authorities say that they are doing for the community. But often citizens are in the dark about how that money is being spent, whether it is being siphoned off, or really going to the community as has been intended.

So, we would love to scale efforts like that, and it’s just really important that in this, through our history, I think in Peru, everything has worked best when we do catalytic things. You know, we worked with Peru to set up its environmental institutions like the Park Ranger Service and the Forest Service. When we do something catalytic, and then the Peruvian authorities run with it and take it forward and build out these institutions. Same with education – we’ve had a great impact on working in rural communities, actually, to double the number of girls in rural areas who’ve gotten access to education. But then it gets handed off to the Ministry of Education and to the school system.

We’re just a small player, I hope an indispensable partner, but my point is, it is the Peruvian people who know best how we can perform that catalytic role. But the ultimate success of development will be when these kinds of programs get institutionalized, when journalists and environmental defenders know that they can get the protection of the state. When small holder farmers know that they can get access to drought resistant seeds, you know, working with the Ministry.

When, you know, I was in these Indigenous Communities and they were building their electricity wires, you know? And I thought to myself, my gosh, it’s probably much quicker and much cheaper if we could pop up some solar panels. But again, that needs to be an ambitious, systemic effort to develop economically those communities that are going to be on the front lines of protecting the Amazon and so much more.

MR. GARCIA: Samantha Power, thank you very much for telling us all this experience that we’re feeling, you have felt very deeply. I hope you will come back to Peru, even if you are Administrator or not of the USAID.

ADMINISTRATOR POWER: Well, let me, let me say this ceviche and the pisco sours, I mean I’m definitely coming back. And, I would like to put something very important on the record, which is that I have it on good authority that the Pisco Sour is Peruvian and not Chilean. I just want to set the record straight that there is no question globally about the heritage of this drink.

MR. GARCIA: Thank you very much Samantha, I am sure that we will see us again here, in Peru, maybe in the jungle. Have a nice trip back to your country.

ADMINISTRATOR POWER: That would be wonderful.

MR. GARCIA: Have a nice trip back to your country.

ADMINISTRATOR POWER: Thank you.